Cracking the Code on Novations with Rich Wonders

"Rich, how you doing today?"

"I'm doing great. Brandon, how you doing, man?"

"Hey, fantastic. I'm super excited for this. You and I just met actually a few minutes ago for the first time. A lot of mutual connections and talked through a little bit about your background and everything. I've got so many questions I'm excited to ask you today, so really excited to have you here. But for anybody listening that doesn't know you, your business, your background, anything like that - what's the story? How'd you get into this?"

"Yeah man, so Rich Wonders, I'm out of Phoenix, Arizona now. I wholesale and do NOVs nationwide. I teach a course on NOVs where I've got 400 people all around the country. Teach the acquisition side, so I've got a passion for sales, a passion for doing things in a low friction and ethical way, full transparency, and really serving the seller. Yeah, I love it. Wholesale and real estate has completely changed my life. I was a door-to-door vacuum salesman for 9 years, so I've like, came from the bottom, you know. I was even homeless at one point before that. And now I get to travel with my wife and my four kids. We get to do all the things that I dreamed of when I was broke, and I just feel very blessed, very fortunate. Got a team of 15 people, we do deals, JV deals nationwide, all through my Instagram account @NovationKing. But yeah, I was in the right place at the right time where I learned this strategy. I had the sales background and I just took the ball and ran with it. And you know, we're trying to make a huge impact and disrupt the industry and help people and do things the right way, keep things going. So it's very cool."

"I have to ask, what possesses somebody to sell vacuums door-to-door for 9 years? Like, I understand if you did that for like six months or something, but like, that's crazy."

"That's a fair question, and I ask myself that a lot now too, right? Looking back, so at the time, here's what it was: The guy that - when I needed the job, I was completely desperate. I got suckered into it. I answered a vague Craigslist ad and I was sleeping on my friend's floor. And before that, I was like sleeping on the floor at the recording studio I was working at. So I was doing bad in life, right? And the guy that ran it, he was the top distributor in the country for like 20 years, and he was making 3 to 5 million a year. And the way that he ran it, I learned so much about sales, about life. He was like a bit of a second father to me. I lost my dad when I was 12, and I learned so much. You know, for at the time, I thought I was making really good money. Like, there were years I would break six figures and everything like that. I never really touched any money like that. And basically, they put you on a track to have your own office, and I went through that whole process, got my own office, did that for two and a half years, had some success, but I was just burnt. I was burnt. I hated the industry. It was very long hours. I learned so much, but I just had this carrot that I was chasing, thinking, 'Hey, look, this job sucks. I'm grinding it out, but one day I'm going to be rich like my boss.' 'Cause he had like this beautiful custom house he built, and it was the first person that had real money like that that I had had proximity to like that. So he was really good at motivating everything, and it was a great thing for me. But yeah, when I got the job, I didn't plan on being there long, but you know, I very quickly, because of my hunger and you know, my background, rose to the top of the ranks there. And I just had like the bronze handcuffs. I thought they were gold, but they ended up being bronze. And yeah, when things went - you know, I had a buddy, Jared Piper, that was taking all these crazy vacations, and I had my first baby on the way and everything, and I was just really getting burnt towards the end. And I asked him what he was doing, and he said he wholesaled. And that's how I found out about wholesale, YouTube University, rabbit hole, eventually, you know, DM Sean Terry randomly and kept selling myself and being persistent, got an interview, got hired, and then I was running the sales department a couple months later from there."

"Oh, that's pretty cool. I mean, I think there's a lesson there in leadership, right? Because I mean, you didn't make a ton of money at this vacuum company, but like, they created an environment where you felt like you were learning and growing, and you know, that was kind of like your paycheck for a little while. You know, that's neat. So that's a really cool story. So how long ago was that that you started in..."

"So I started real estate January 28th, 2019. I remember to the day. Yep, so that was my first day. I even got a picture. I look like such a dork. I put on my glasses, I had long sleeve shirt on 'cause just my arms were tattooed then. I didn't have my neck and my hands hit up, but I wanted to just look like as innocent as possible 'cause I didn't want to go into the office and have them be like, 'Who the heck is this? Oh, get him out of here. He doesn't belong here.' You know what I mean? I was like embarrassed about them thinking I was rough around the edges. But now I use it as like kind of my superpower, and once I got independent, that's when I just started tatting everything. I'm like, 'Look, I'm going to only be around people that want to be around me. I'm going to do what I want to do. I'm unemployable. Let's go.' So yeah, it was a great learning lesson working with Sean. You know, he's a good guy."

"That's a really interesting story. Okay, thank you for the background and everything. So something that I'm aware that you teach a lot, or that you're a little bit known for, is kind of, you know, different types of marketing like inbound versus outbound. And I'm really curious to hear your perspective on this. And for anybody listening, like Rich and I haven't like necessarily talked about this. I'm actually curious like if we might agree or even disagree on some. But what I'm specifically asking about, because I know your course dives a lot into an acquisitions process, and you had mentioned to me it's pretty different for like an outbound lead versus an inbound lead. I can tell you one of the most common issues that we deal with with our clients is switching from outbound to inbound marketing and like steering the sales team through that transition of like, we're getting a lot less leads but they're better quality, or even keeping the outbound going and then adding inbound and like, how do you adapt to it? Basically, everybody kind of assumes inbound leads are better, so we'll just close better. And you usually close better, but they're a lot more expensive. But unless you're really closing inbound leads like how they need to be closed, then they're just too expensive to really be able to afford them. And that's a very common issue where like, we start working with a client and the first 6 months they just, they just can't figure out that sales process piece. And then you know, they eventually have like new team members join or something like that, and they figure it out, and then they're off to the races. What's your advice for somebody who's like used to a different type of lead and then they're moving to a more inbound style of lead like PPC leads in terms of acquisitions process and key things that you're going to want to change?"

"So this is a great question. I'll try to nail these points down. So inbound leads - on an outbound lead, there's a lot more of a qualification filter that you need on your sales process. So you'll notice people that do really well with outbound, they normally have scaled out the cold callers because you need scale to get consistency. And then you have to scale out lead managers and acquisitions because you have a high volume of work that you have to do to filter through these, right? Because basically, normally the way it works, you know, is anybody that raises their hand and says 'I will consider an offer on my house,' boom, that's normally considered a lead, right? If you're using a VA, that's what they're calling all day to maybe get two or three of those per day, right? And then so you've got this massive filtering process where you're - you can't spend an hour on the phone with each one of those because some of those people will talk to you and they have no intention of selling their house, you know what I mean? Now with inbound, the beauty of that is you can take more of a consultative approach because right off the bat, they've raised their hand and they are actively seeking out more information at the very least, right? And there, it's showing that intent. So you can play the role differently, and you can nurture these leads and gather more information because they're reaching out to you. You're not disrupting them and, you know, basically asking for their time to see if they may be interested. They've already had that initial interest. So I think what ends up happening is people that are used to just running through leads with a machine gun and like, 'Hey, you know, throwing out low, see what sticks, going back and forth,' you try that with a PPC lead and it's going to be very difficult 'cause the person, you know what I mean, there - it's a different - you're not going for the same low-hanging fruit that you are with a cold call. With the cold call, a lot of times you can just be right place, right time, you run them through the meat grinder, and a deal can come out the other side, you know what I mean? But with a PPC, a lot of times you're dealing also with higher price point houses, more sophisticated sellers. You have to have a softer approach and a softer touch, and you have to look more into deeper of what the motivation - and it gives - it buys you more time because there's already that initial them reaching out to you. You can position yourself as an authority rather than as like a hunter or like a beggar, you know what I mean, like when you're talking to the cold call leads. So I think it buys you more time and you can nurture them. You can have a lower friction sales process because there's an inherent greater value of a PPC lead compared to cold call lead. And you look at the numbers, you know, what's cold call normal numbers? 30 to 50, maybe 50 to 80, depending on your team, like leads per deal. And then PPC, I mean, if you're a killer, you could be one out of eight, one out of 10, one out of 15, maybe one out of 20, depending on your market and your skill level and everything like that. But you - you know, people get so caught up on price per lead, but the more important thing is how much money do you make every month, right? You can have a really low cost per lead and you're spending all your time and you have your best people talking to people that aren't even qualified. You know, with a PPC, you may - you may pay a higher cost per lead or per deal, but you're - you know, if you're making more money every month and you're spending more time talking to motivated sellers, it's a higher ROI on your time and your opportunity cost."

"Yeah, 100%. Yeah, that aligns pretty well. One of the principles that we teach is we call it 'assume motivation,' and it's basically - for sure, like the idea is like, with an outbound lead, you kind of assume that they're not motivated until you can prove that they are, versus with a PPC lead, you assume that they're motivated until you can prove that they're not. So it's just a different, you know, just different mindset. But the idea is like, you don't - you talk to someone, you know, the house is worth 300, they tell you they want 400, like that shouldn't phase you on a PPC lead, like, for sure. Because yeah, you're used to - yeah, in cold call, you're used to just like, 'I can't waste my time with people,' versus PPC, it's like, how long can I waste my time with this person so I can get to the root of what's actually going on?"

"Yeah, 'cause you know, there's that underlying factor that they cared enough that they went on the computer and somehow were seeking out a solution. So yeah, it's almost like you keep qualifying them until you can get to the root of it and see if it's a problem you can actually solve or not."

"So, no, I totally get it. Like, there's, you know, there's something there. So yeah, 100%. Yeah, okay. That's neat. That's neat to hear your perspective on that. And like, the thing for you, the other thing I want to ask you about is NOV. I mean, obviously based on your Instagram handle, that's kind of your thing. And I know you've taught a lot of people to do novations that, you know, previously hadn't done them in their business. And we've had a few guests on the podcast kind of talk about novations. I'm super curious to hear kind of your unique spin on this. And I guess like, what is the opportunity? Like, how do you adapt your sales process for that? Like, all, you know, all these things. Just what's your idea of yeah, the right way to go about it, doing a novation deal where you feel like sometimes people are just missing the mark?"

"Great question, great question. So the types of opportunities that work best for novation are a motivated seller that's looking for certainty, peace of mind, and hands-off experience. Okay, normally a wholesale deal is going to be a distressed property with a distressed seller where there's enough distress between those two things that they're willing to accept an offer where you can make - you as the wholesaler can make a margin, the fix and flipper or landlord can make a margin, and it also invest money in the house. So a lot of times it ends up being 50 cents on the dollar, maybe 60 cents on the dollar is where you have to be. Now there's this whole range of sellers that they are motivated and willing to take a discount, but the ideal buyer is not a fix and flipper. You know, we do houses that are only a couple years old. You know, we do houses that were only bought a few years ago. And with this strategy, basically you can give the seller a net amount. We disclose what we're doing, that we're going to be selling to third party. We may be using the MLS if we choose. We'll handle all repairs. They get a hands-off experience. We do all the leg work. They know their net amount. Whether we make a dollar or a million dollars, they're getting X. And basically, we just delivered the result on the silver platter. So we call it the Concierge Service. Now that's like the basic gist of like - because NOVs can mean a lot of things. You hear people talking about renovating the house, houses, partnering up with the sellers. We don't do any of that. Okay, not that you can't make money, but it's just a different business model, right? I'm - I'll spend some money, but it's to help them move, to do egregious repairs like if there's trash in the front or painting something where I have a high ROI. It's less than normally $5,000, and you know what I mean, it's just kind of a no-brainer help them move their stuff out because that's got to happen anyways. So that's what we do. Now the thing that makes our program, you know, different is we have a very compelling sales process. Most people pitch NOVs as a secondary option after wholesaling doesn't work. So they'll pitch their lowball wholesale offer, they say no, and they say, 'Okay, hey, I understand. Well, we do also have this thing over here. It's called, you know, the whatever program, you know, where we partner up with you and then we get a realtor and then we get it sold,' and they explain the process. Now with us, we have a very low friction sales process, and then when we pitch the Concierge Service, it's pitched as the perfect solution. So we do give them a cash offer, but the cash offer is in a range where if they say yes to my cash offer, I'll buy their house cash because it's 50 cents on the dollar. Like, it's a low offer. But the way we pitch it is in a tentative way where it's like, 'Hey, look, we did get a cash offer approved, but honestly, based on our conversation, it's probably not going to be a match. You know, it came in a lot lower than you wanted to be. You know, we'd have to be at 342,000. However, I have some good news. You know, we have another program that I didn't really mention earlier because we have very strict criteria. This is the one I was really hoping I could get you qualified for. It's called the Concierge Service, and I'm extremely excited because I actually have a full approval. And let me just explain how it works. Okay, you get all the benefits of a cash offer, meaning you don't have to spend any money, you don't have to lift a finger, you don't have to do any repairs, you don't have to deal with realtors. We handle all the work on on the back end, and we actually secure a third-party buyer and we get paid by the buyer.' So we give them a short little sell the sizzle, and then we run them through the entirety of the paperwork paragraph by paragraph, and then we close right there on the spot. So our sales process is extremely effective. You can wholesale houses with the same thing. It's just they understand we don't represent ourselves to be the buyer. Like, if I tell them I'm buying your house cash, I'm going to buy their house cash. But anything else is Concierge Service. And about two out of 10 deals that we do, we put them through the Concierge Service pitch and then we sell it off market. 'Cause dude, I love selling properties off market. It's way quicker, it's less moving parts, it's way easier. But if you - if I only sold properties off market, I'd be missing out on 80% of the deals that I'm doing. So you know what I mean, it's - they both work and it's not - you're not going to sit there and go, 'Should I novate this one? Should I do a wholesale?' It's going to be a no-brainer. Like, it's either obviously going to be a wholesale or it's gonna be something that'll never work as a wholesale but is a great novation."

"So that's interesting. You view them as like separate different types of situations and properties that you'd use each strategy for. Because I've heard from a lot of people, they view it as like, 'Oh, I could make a thinner margin on a wholesale, but I could also novate it for more.'"

"Oh yeah, yeah. If it's a big gap, then I'll go through the hassle of putting it on the market. But if it's like 10 grand, I'm like, you know, 50 right now or 60 in two months maybe if everything goes right, you know, I'm taking the 50 right now. You know what I mean? But I have 50 deals going too, so anytime I can get a quick one, I'm like, 'Oh good, no crisis.' Like, easy, we just run it through because the velocity, you know, having a quick turnover too on the cash is good, you know, for any business."

"Is it the same contract for all this stuff, or like how does your paperwork differ?"

"Yeah, so the paperwork that I use, I've been using for 3 years, and then we have 400 plus members in the Rainmaker Community that also use it. None of us have been sued, nobody's gone to jail. So it's like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, knock on wood, right? But our paperwork's been super solid and we do it nationwide too, you know what I mean. And so I use a purchase and sale agreement that has our specific language. I use an attorney in fact, not a power of attorney. So that's one thing that's different than other people. I use attorney in fact, but I only use that to hire the realtor. I have the seller sign the buyer's offer, and the seller signs everything from the buyer's offer up until closing docs. Now people say, 'Well, don't they see how much you make?' Yes, they do. That's why you have to set expectations. You have to give them a really good experience. You can get away most of the time trying to do a POA or AIF and signing for the seller, but there will be times where the lender looks at that and says, 'Well, who the heck are you? Are you the grandson? Oh no, you're, you know, an investor,' and it can cause problems. The buyer's agents sometimes don't like it. So I try to do everything as either always or never, right? So I had a couple deals all at once when we were signing on behalf of the seller that became a problem, and I almost lost like 100 grand because the deals were like on life support. Like, one of them we had to find a new lender, the other one we were able to just get the seller to resign the docs and that saved it, and then the third one, the same thing. But I always try to operate where like, okay, if we're doing this at scale and I'm teaching hundreds of other people to do this at scale, is this the best way to mitigate disaster, right? So that's why I recommend signing for the - having the seller sign for the buyer."

"Yeah, that's fascinating. You ever run into friction because like, people are afraid of the friction of like, they're not going to want to sign because they found out how much money we make? Like, how often do you actually run into that?"

"I've never lost a deal from that. Yeah, and it's very rare that anybody even bats an eye. Here's the key to avoid that though. One, you have to really firmly set expectations from the very beginning, and that's part of our closing process where several times we mentioned the dollar amount that they're going to be receiving minus mortgage liens and tax. So that's part of it where we hit them several times with that. We also mentioned, 'Whether we make a dollar or a million dollars on this, it's not going to change on your end.' And we give - we make sure that we negotiate them well and we're certain on our numbers. And if we find out during our due diligence, like when we're hiring the realtor, that the condition's worse or we were off on our numbers or there's some other X factor, we will nego - we will address that before it goes on the market. So we don't throw spaghetti at the wall and see what hits because most of these are owner-occupied. It's like, you know what I mean, someone in a vulnerable position is either elderly person, a working-class family. Like, you - it's different than an abandoned house, right? Like, if this doesn't close, people get like legitimately harmed, you know what I mean, and they're in a bad position. So we find all that stuff out early, and we have like a 90% closing rate of once - once they hit the market, you know what I mean. So I forgot even what the question was, man. I got going and-"

"Oh, I was asking, do deals blow up when the seller sees the buyer's offer?"

"Oh, okay. So you just - you want to make sure this - you want to make sure this is what's going to make them mad: when you take too long. Okay? You need to price it so you get an offer in two to 3 weeks. You can't try - you can't try to make your money on the back end. You want to buy it at a discount and sell it at a discount so it moves quick. So that will make them mad if you go past 60 days. They will get mad. The other thing is if you're not in good communication and you don't provide the three things that they were originally looking for: certainty, peace of mind, and hands-off experience. So if they don't feel certainty throughout the process, they're going to be stressed out the whole time, even if you're doing everything correctly, right? So you have to communicate with them. You have to be their peace of mind. I always look for ways to help them out, especially when I know that we're making a big profit on it, right? Help them move, you know what I mean, help them find a place, do some work to the house to give some improvements, pay their mortgage if we need to. So I try to add value as much as I can, and it is - I try to approach it from the sense of like a five-star service, right, where we really treat them well. You know, like in the hospitality industry almost, right, where they - they just feel like they don't have to do anything and we just deliver results and solutions. They feed us problems, we deliver solutions back. So you have to - that's the key, is them emotionally being satisfied with the process. Then they won't be mad at the end, and you have to do what you say and set the expectations the whole way through. When people get mad is when their expectations are set one way and the reality is a different way. That's what really grinds people's gears. And that's why being trained transparent - it's more difficult. It takes a more sophisticated approach to be able to still word it in a favorable way for them, right? The shortcut is just to lie. 'Oh, I'm going to sell your house.' Bury a pre-marketing clause in there. If they see it on the MLS, 'Hey, didn't you read the contract?' and put it back on them. But you're still going to have - it's still - you can't do that. You got to win over their heart and mind. You know, if you can win over their heart and mind, that's the key. But you just have to have the courage and really truly believe in your heart that you're the right solution. Like, the people that I sign, I have the biggest conviction 'cause I know we actually care. We will actually only take on deals that we can get done, and I'll be upfront and honest with them in the beginning if we find out it doesn't work. I'll lay it all out on the table. 'Hey, look, this deal doesn't work for you now. I completely understand you're under no obligation to take this offer.' So I'm sold myself that it's the best thing for them, and then I make sure that I overpromise and we overdeliver."

"Yeah, this is the first conversation I've had with somebody where they've really focused on like the service aspect of NOVs as being a key part of it. Because we - I know we have clients all the time like getting a big deal and then, you know, seller backs out and stuff like that. And I know that will always happen, but I wonder, you know, I wonder how effective a lot of people are with like the service that they give and and how possible it is that so many deals blow up if you're not actually like continually delivering on those promises of that like five-star service that people are expecting. I just - I don't think that's - like, nobody ever talks about that, I guess is what I'm saying, which makes me a little bit doubtful that many people focus on it, you know? Like, you just treat the seller like crap and then they back - they might want to back out of the contract and and you're surprised, you know?"

"Yeah, it's not - you got to look at it like this: for the seller, it's not a transaction, it's an experience. It's different 'cause wholesaling is different, right? You're dealing with a lot of tired landlords, investors, people that have neglected these properties, you know what I mean? It's a different type of client. With this, our avatar is a normal person that's in a bind. They're in a tough life situation. So their life situation is the root of their problem. It's not necessarily the house. It's financial, it's personal life, or some situation - someone's sick, someone's got to move. So you know, right, it makes logical sense. The reason they're not going the traditional route is because they don't want that experience. So they're looking for this cash offer experience, but their property just doesn't fit in that box. So if you can cater to that, that's also too how we get such a high conversion rate. Because we - we talk to people where they're talking to inexperienced or hopefully not, but maybe even unethical wholesalers that are offering way too much money, where it's like, we can't even novate it at the price that they're talking about and sell it on market. So I know they can't wholesale it off market. And the way we can win them over, get them to agree to a lower price, is we do really take the time to understand them, and we don't do any negotiation in the beginning. It's all - the discovery phase is all about just seeking to understand them and asking follow-up questions. Because then when we come in to solve their problems, we know all the moving parts and the variables, and we can dramatically give a perfect solution that hits every major checkpoint. And we make logical sense on our offer too, where they can understand how the other offers - there's no way that that's a legitimate offer. So I do what's called scorching the earth, right? And I do it on my live, and I'll have wholesalers get mad sometimes too, like, 'Oh, you're throwing us under the bus.' It's like, well, dude, if - if you're going to wholesale, tell them you're going to wholesale. And if you play to be a cash buyer and you're offering him too much money, yeah, I am going to expose you because this is someone's grandma and I know you can't deliver on that price, you know what I mean? So have it be what it's going to be. But I think it's important, you know what I mean? 'Cause a lot of people get in wholesale and there's like a hustle mentality, and I get it. Like, I've been there. You know, I mentioned earlier, you know, I was homeless at one point when I was first, you know, when I was in my 20s for a short time. So I get it. But we have to elevate past that and realize that this is a - a people business, and us being experts and them being lay people, we have an obligation to them to do right by them, you know what I mean? And and follow the Golden Rule. And it's okay if you make money, but you just have to do what you say and set the proper expectations with them, and then no one's harmed."

"So yeah, I want to dig a little bit deeper into one thing that that you said, because I've heard - I've heard pretty varying opinions about when the right time to talk about price is. There's some people that just like go for their throat like right out the gate. Like, that's - that's how they do the the pricing negotiations. And then I - I do have some clients that that I really respect that kind of do sort of what you're talking about, where they like, you know, you figure out everything so you can just build up this like nice silver platter of like everything that they need. And then price is just a piece of that, like focusing on price makes it about price versus focusing on everything else. And then price is just like the final little detail to to get correct deal sign. So anyways, I - I'm curious to hear just like, if you were to - if you were talking to somebody right now who says you have to go for price right out of the gate, and you're convincing them that your way is the better way, like what would you say?"

"So here's - I - I'll build a steel man real quick of the opposing idea. So getting - getting the price out right in the beginning, that's more of a technique for cold call leads and for lower price point. That's a way to cut through the qualification phase, right? Because if their price - price is way out of the blue and you've got a hundred other leads to call, that's a good thing to find out early. Now on the inbound side of things and the higher price point - like, for example, we've got a house right now in Scottsdale, Arizona that we're under contract for 1.5, and we just sold it to a buyer for 1.7 million, right? That's not a deal that you're going to do in 15 minutes by throwing prices around, right? The guy's going through foreclosure. He had a bunch of businesses that had funding cut off that were in the healthcare space. There's a lot of nuanced problems, right? And that's - it's different than when you're talking to someone that has a house they inherited from their grandpa that's worth $60,000 and they're living, you know, check to check. It's just different conversations. So my thing is, is they both work, but the consultative approach - if you think about it, right, how important a house is, especially if you're talking to an owner-occupant - like with NOVs, most of them are owner-occupants, you know what I mean? And most of the house is there - if you get to price too early, you're going to cut off the flow of information on their situation, and you're making it too transactional. And you got to understand, this is not a business transaction for them. This is a life-pivoting moment for the right people, right? Someone that's just looking for price and just looking for convenience is probably not going to be a fit because, look, you know, they're going to have to take a relatively significant discount compared to what it would be on market, right? So you have to really understand their situation to see if it'll even be a fit. Because the thing that they can quantify is the price. So they're hurting, and then the price is the thing that they think is going to make it better. But you can address those same concerns in a different way, and then now all of a sudden, the price becomes less important because the things that they thought they would need money to solve, they no longer need money for. We fixed those problems. So they're willing to trade some equity for the peace of mind and not having to do the leg work. Same like when a seller says, 'Hey man, you know, it's a great deal, but they - they can't sell for six months,' right? Rather than just waiting 6 months, we try to figure out, well, what are the things that need to happen in these six months? And we figure out a way to compress the timeline. So we're solving the same problem that they thought needed to be solved with time, but we're able to solve a different way with our expertise and our resourcefulness. So being resourceful is extremely important because you can't blame them. Like, look, everybody's taught when you sell something, you try to get as much money as you can for it. But you got to dig down deep to see what are the actual problems that they need solved, and a lot of those can be solved without money. And then money becomes less important."

"Yeah, that's super fascinating. I mean, it's - it's kind of similar to the same reason that you sold vacuum cleaners vacuum cleaners for nine years, right? Could you have found a job that paid you more? Absolutely. Was the money great? Not really. But like an employee that's not learning and growing and respecting the people that they work with, they always just say they need more money when the root of the cause is like, they don't like the culture of the company or they're not learning or whatever the case is. So - so like in it's in the same vein, like a business owner could just look at all those problems like the whole way to solve this is you just like pay everybody more money all the time versus like, some of the most successful businesses, yes, they pay well, but they also learn how to build everything else that people want, that the things that they would never say they want just - that actually makes it happen. Like so that's the reason like you stayed - stay - stayed selling vacuum cleaners for 9 years, because your needs were met in other ways. Um, so that's where it - it - the principle also applies to like marketing even PPC. Like one thing that I see a lot of people doing wrong is they put in their PPC ads, 'We pay more than other investors' or something like that, and then they complain when they get a bunch of these leads that are really motivated by price. And all I can think of in my head is like, you're - you know, you're attracting price. Why are you surprised? It seems great when you get more clicks, but then when you find out what the clicks are, you're filtering the wrong people."

"Yeah, exactly. It's just - it's about where you put the focus versus like, the ad can speak to like, 'We help people out of these types of situations' um, 'with speed and convenience' or whatever the case is."

"So anyways, I - I just think it's super fascinating what you said. Well, that's - that's super cool. Rich, if somebody wants to get a hold of you, look into your course, whatever the case is, what's the best way to get a hold of you?"

"Yeah, uh, Instagram @NovationKing, all one word. Um, I do free live calls almost every day. I post tons of content that's all real estate related. You check me out on YouTube at Novation King. To JV with me and my team, we are the number one novation JV team on planet Earth. NovationJV.com, you can check out all the details on how to submit our criteria, our split, that whole nine yards. And then NovationKing.com, you can check out more info on NOVs. If you sign up for my email list, you also have some free goodies that we'll send you, and I've got videos and stuff explaining our sales process and more info on that. And you can also access the Rainmaker Community from there too."

"Very cool. Awesome. Any - any final words, any advice?"

"Man, appreciate you for having me on here. For everybody watching this, look, you took time out of your day to watch a wholesaling podcast. Shout out to you. The real estate industry has completely changed my life. If you're not looking into novations yet, I would highly suggest checking it out because it's a massive revenue stream, especially if you have good PPC leads from people like the Baitman Collective. You can monetize so many more leads, give them a great experience, and this really is the new wave in wholesaling. So yeah, check it out and appreciate you, bro."

"Yeah, yeah. I think just - just like one final note based on what you're saying. Do you think it's possible that NOVs are a better fit for PPC leads even than they are for other channels? 'Cause with PPC, you're - you're not like - let's just say it's direct mail. Like, you're building your list and you're looking specifically for distressed properties, or you're looking specifically for, you know, more - more specific locations potentially, or you know, more specific distress type of seller. Versus PPC, you kind of get everything under the sun. Of course, we try to focus on distress, but is it possible that that there's more leads through PPC that can be monetized by novation than a lot of these other channels like higher?"

"Absolutely. All that stuff - PPC is the most sorted for motivation out of any of the other - any other channel, right? Because it's - the person had intent to initiate. They're not responding, they're initiating contact with you. So right there too, and anybody that's ran PPC, you get lots of motivated sellers that just have houses you can't wholesale. And these are all the ones where you're like, 'Man, dude, if I just had unlimited capital, I would whale every single one of these.' You can do that now without taking on the risk and without having the capital needed, you know what I mean, to do that. So yeah, dude, with PPC, if you're not doing novation, you really should reconsider because you - once you see it, you're not going to be able to unsee it. When you find these motivated sellers with the nicer houses, you know what I mean, these are all leads that normally you just have to do a realtor referral or you just have to do an infinite follow-up sequence where you can be solving these problems. And there's very few people that know how to do these deals, so you have very, very limited competition, especially if you're going in markets where there aren't a lot of other wholesalers. But the smaller markets too, you can sell those on market that you'll never sell to an investor, but you'll sell to a nice family, you know what I mean? It's a win-win. They get a good deal, seller gets hands-off experience, the realtor gets paid, title company gets paid, you get paid, everybody gets paid. So it's a win-win."

"Yeah, understood. Cool. Sorry - sorry for the random last-minute question, but thank you, Rich. Appreciate all the value that you've added today, and for everybody else listening, I will see you next week."

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